Gotta Love the Snufferites:
Some of the Snufferites have demanded once again that I provide them with an explanation of my beliefs and my writings. BrianM even asked me to supply some of this. So here goes, once again.
Before I start, I must say that all of this is my OWN personal opinion. It is not libel, and I am NOT lying. I am going to tell you now how I (and some of my friends) personally interpret the writings and actions of Denver Snuffer and his followers. I am going to paraphrase a lot of this because it was given to me in private, so don't expect me to provide any sources or direct quotes from my friends and their private messages to me. Remember, it is all opinion, so lay off already!
I have had a couple of interesting conversations with different Snufferites in private messaging. They're not all bad people. In fact, I like some of them a lot and have had some interesting interaction with some of them. I wouldn't mind hanging out with some of them in person, if given the chance to do so.
One person wrote to me and said, “I hate the Snufferites”. I found the statement rather shocking at the time, because that's just not the way that I personally feel about the Snufferites. There are actually a couple of the Snufferites that I have learned to like, for one reason or another, mostly because they are good people I guess. For awhile, I was dissident, I was atheist, I was a Cultural Mormon, I was inactive, I was Jack Mormon, and I was an LDS Apostate who didn't believe in any of it any more. The Snufferites are my kind of people, and I relate to the dissident and the fringe more than anyone can possibly guess.
Some of us have taken to calling the public tactics of the Snufferites by the name of “Snufferisms”. Often, the Snufferites have become so converted to their master (contrary to Snuffer's own command) that they cannot see that they are committing these acts of Snufferism during their defense of the man.
Denver wrote: "In contrast, my view is that the leaders are unworthy to lead the Saints. The basic member is more virtuous, more worthy, and better than those who lead them. I’m skeptical of the top, not the bottom.”
This is a Snufferisim – it's mind-reading, it's assuming facts not in evidence, it's assuming the negative, it's jumping to conclusions, it's pronouncing final judgment, it's a way of saying that I and the Snufferites are better than you are. I have had Snufferites write to me and tell me that they agree with this statement. But, there's no way for a Snufferite to judge or know if one person is more virtuous, more worthy, or better than someone else. That's simple mind-reading, one of the worst of logic fallacies. To make such a claim, you have to assume facts that no mortal being can possibly know. Plus, it's really Christ's job to make this kind of judgment, not ours!
Many of the Snufferites that I personally have encountered engage in mind-reading, assuming of facts not in evidence, and assuming the negative. They sometimes judge and condemn a person, even though the person is actually investigating their cause and is open to joining their cause. But, through mind-reading and personally attacking their investigators, the Snufferites often turn their investigators against Denver Snuffer and his message. I have had a number of people tell me that this happened to them. They were simply looking for answers, when they were unexpectedly pounced on by a Snufferite and driven away from the man and his cause. This happened to me also, many different times.
The Snufferites as a group repeatedly libel and label their opponents as “liars” in public. This is also a form of mind-reading. There's no way they can know for sure if a person's publicly expressed opinion is in fact a deliberate lie. Even when some of their investigators are asking an honest question, the investigator is often labeled as a “liar” and encouraged to shut up or go away. Many of my friends have told me in private that this happened to them. It also has happened to me.
In private conversation with a Snufferite, I was asked to think about why I chose to abandon Denver Snuffer and his message. This person had derived so much good from Denver Snuffer that he just couldn't see my point of view. I got to wondering if I left because of the man or because of the actions of the Snufferites.
I must confess, I did indeed leave in no small part due to the fact that some of the Snufferites did in fact tell me to shut up and go away. In other words, there were indeed a few Snufferites who drove me away from his secret forum, drove me away from reading the man, and drove me away from their cause. The Snufferites did indeed develop within me a bias to only look for and search for what is wrong with the man and his followers, in large part because of the tactics and exclusionary practices that they used on me to defend the man. I must confess that this is true. One of the Snufferites told me that confession is good for the soul; so, I can now confess that some of the Snufferites did indeed drive me away from the man, his books, and his blog. The fruits of his labors, the Snufferites, did indeed have a role in driving me away from Denver Snuffer. There's no denying it. And, some of my friends have told me in private that the same thing happened to them.
But, I also must admit that the claims that Denver was making in his book, “Passing the Heavenly Gift”, that the Lord stopped backing the Saints and the LDS Church at Nauvoo when they failed to complete the LDS Temple, also had a great impact on me. I just don't buy it, because I have encountered dozens of active Latter-day Saints who clearly have NOT been abandoned by the Lord. It is also clear to me that some of the LDS General Authorities have NOT been abandoned by the Lord, because the Holy Ghost actually testifies to me that what they are saying to me is true. Furthermore, if the claims that Denver Snuffer makes in “Passing the Heavenly Gift” are really true, then there is no way possible for the things that he wrote in “The Second Comforter” to be true. So, the man's message did indeed have an impact on my decision to leave the man and his message behind. Dozens of people, both in public and in private, have told me that they have experienced the same thing. They simply do NOT see “Passing the Heavenly Gift” as a work from God.
I could also sense from my Snufferite friend that he did indeed believe and know that he had gotten a lot of good from Denver Snuffer. Of course, I and some of the others can also see some of the bad that he and other Snufferites like him have gotten from Denver Snuffer. They wear the mark of their master and exemplify their master. It's a part of them, a part that they are often blind to; but, the Snufferites follow and do what Denver writes in public.
I had one person write to me and say something to this effect, “Why can't the Snufferites see that they, themselves, turn us against Denver and his message by the very tactics that they use to defend him?” It's an interesting question, is it not?
Denver Snuffer wrote about some of the Latter-day Saints, “I envision them as little yellow chaps.” This is another type of Snufferism, what some of us entitle name-calling. The most commonly used Snufferism on LDS Freedom Forum takes place whenever the Snufferites start libeling and labeling their opponents as liars, simply because their opponents refuse to interpret Denver Snuffer's words the exact same way that the Snufferites do. Of course, the Snufferite is permitted to label and libel the opponent, because the Snufferite knows that the opponent is a liar. Some of the little yellow chaps out here in the world could see Denver's comment not only as name-calling but also as a racial slur.
Whenever a Snufferite is losing the argument, they then resort to calling their opponents liars. But NO, their opponents are not liars. Their opponents are simply fulfilling their request or their demand to know why we refuse to support and sustain them and Denver Snuffer. Yet, when we tell them why, then the Snufferite will libel us as a liar and try to get our posts deleted or try to get us banned from the forum. The Snufferites can indeed leave a bad taste in the mouth. They first demand an explanation, and then they libel and label when the explanation is given. It can get quite annoying at times.
One person told me to observe and see that when it comes to the Snufferites, there is no love or charity in them; they can't be from Christ, because they violate Christ's second great commandment. I can certainly say that I have seen evidence of that from most of the Snufferites, but not all of them. I can say with a surety that Denver Snuffer is often judged by the actions of his followers, the Snufferites. The Snufferites are often their own worst enemies, especially whenever they pounce on their unwary investigators and start chewing them out for questioning Denver Snuffer and his motives. It turns people off to Denver, his books, and his blog. I can't count the number of times that people have expressed to me this sentiment in private. They don't like the Snufferites because of the way that they have been treated by the Snufferites. Over time, they also learn not to like Denver Snuffer because of the way that his followers have treated them.
To Denver Snuffer: “In your effort to defend the restoration, you have mischaracterized doctrine, denigrated virtually every prophet since Joseph Smith, and placed the church in a negative light. The book (Passing the Heavenly Gift) is a misguided effort to attempt to bridge the gap between the church and its dissidents.”
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/08/dont-call-me-yes-that-means-you-too_23.html
This is not only an accusation, but it is also what a jury of twelve convicted Denver Snuffer of doing and excommunicated Denver Snuffer for doing. I must openly confess that Denver's excommunication did indeed have an an impact on my decision to stop supporting him and following him. Others have expressed to me similar sentiments. There's a reason why they excommunicated Denver, and some of those reasons are why some of us no longer trust Denver Snuffer. That's just the way it is.
This, too, is yet another Snufferism, or mode of operation for the Snufferite. The Snufferites often mischaracterize LDS Doctrine in order to suit their goals. They sometimes deliberately interpret the LDS Scriptures in a way that conflicts with Official LDS Church Doctrine. Their posts and public messages often denigrate or ridicule or dismiss the LDS General Authorities and the Brethrenites, their teachings, their revelations, and their words. Following their master, the Snufferites often cast the church in a negative light. Some people have suggested to me in private that if the Snufferites are what the LDS Church is like, then they don't want to have any part of it. I have to assure them that I have not seen any of this from the members of my own ward.
When the Snufferites start dissing the impersonal bureaucratic LDS Church of recent years, I know exactly where they are coming from. The institution is less than perfect as even some of the LDS General Authorities will admit. I have had and have encountered some serious disagreements with the LDS Church over my life. I'm in my fifties and have been a baptized member since I was 8; so, I have had some time to rack up some grievances. Those who have served an LDS mission know that you catch a lot of flack there as well. The only question I have is, “What good does it do you to discuss my grievances in public?”
As I see it, if I don't like my ward, then it is my responsibility to go out and try to make my ward the kind of place and the kind of people that I do like to be around. Airing my grievances against the LDS Church won't accomplish that, because my grievances against the LDS Church are also grievances against me as a member of the LDS Church. If I don't like something, then I should go out and change it, rather than complaining about it.
I have had half a dozen LDS friends who have been employees of the LDS Church. It ended badly or didn't turn out well for most of them. Only one of them likes it, and continues to like it over a decade later. The man fascinates me because he honestly and truly loves working for the LDS Church; but, he is the exception rather than the rule. For many, being an employee of the LDS Church becomes the source of their desire to leave the LDS Church. It's the fact that they run the Church like a corporation that tends to annoy people the most. One person told me that when she became an employee for the LDS Church, one of her friends or leaders told her not to let it drive her out of the Church. She didn't know what the person was talking about at first, but she came to know.
Yes, this kind of stuff exists, but what good did I just do you by telling you this in public? Were you enlightened and edified? Was your testimony strengthened? Do you now feel closer to Jesus Christ than you did before? Did what I just say make you feel happy to be a Latter-day Saint?
Joseph Smith wrote: “If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”
This rule applies equally as much to the Snufferites as it does to any other Latter-day Saint; yet, the book “Passing the Heavenly Gift” is in blatant violation of this rule. Dozens of people have pointed this out to me in one way or another. It's not just something that I made up on my own.
I always end up agreeing with the Snufferites whenever they bring up the issue of poverty in the LDS Church. I can also say in all honesty that we ALL should do better helping the poor and serving the poor, not just the LDS Church and not just the LDS General Authorities. LDS Bishops should and must find ways to get Fast Offering funds and humanitarian relief directed their way, especially if they have people in their ward who are dying from starvation or exposure. The boots on the ground, the LDS Bishops and LDS Stake Presidents have to take responsibility for this; and, they are in a direct position to do so. They have every right to get on the horn and let Salt Lake City know that they and their wards are in desperate need of some assistance.
The Snufferites that I have encountered almost unanimously 'cast the church in a negative light' when it comes to the poor Latter-day Saints who live among them. The only problem I have with this is that so far NONE of them have told me what they personally are doing to solve the problem. The Snufferites I have conversed with seem to only be complaining about the problem rather than actually trying to find ways to solve the problem. If they know how to solve he problem, then please, go out and do it!
And, that's the way I currently see it. Tomorrow, I will probably see it differently.
I wrote a piece for a Snufferite who repeatedly keeps asking, “Why don't you trust us? Why don't you trust Denver Snuffer?” I'll include that next if I am permitted to do so, because it answers the person's question.
Mark My Words
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Jesus Christ our Exemplar:
Can we all agree that Jesus Christ is our Master and our Exemplar? Can we all agree that Jesus Christ is the perfect example of a saved and exalted being? Can we all agree that we should follow Jesus Christ and do as He did? If we can come to this agreement, then maybe we can make some real progress, by examining what Christ did and how He acted while here on this earth.
Let me ask some questions.
At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, did Jesus Christ stand up and say to the 5,000 plus assembled at His feet: “I rock! I just received the Third Comforter. You guys haven't even yet received the First Comforter, and I have already received the Third Comforter. How cool is that?”
Nope!
Instead, we are all left to wonder if Jesus Christ ever received the Third Comforter. We are also left to wonder if Jesus Christ received the Second Comforter; and if He did, who was the being who appeared to Jesus when Jesus Christ received the Second Comforter? Jesus Christ simply leaves us hanging with the words and the evidence unsaid. Why? I'll let you figure out for yourself why; but let me say that Jesus repeatedly tells us that He only does what His Father commands Him to do.
During the triumphal entry into Jerusalem when the people were worshiping before Him, did Jesus stand up on the back of the donkey and shout out to the whole city of Jerusalem, “I had my Calling and Election made Sure!”
No!
Instead, we are left to wonder if Jesus Christ ever had any of His callings and elections made sure. In fact, most of Christendom haven't even heard of callings and elections, let alone trying to figure out how to make any of them sure.
At the Last Supper, did Jesus Christ stand up before His buddies and tell them, “I'm THE MAN! I have had my Celestial Marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise!”
Nope!
Instead, we are left to wonder if Jesus Christ ever received a Celestial Marriage. We assume that Jesus did, because in Jewish culture a man could not become a Rabbi or Teacher if he wasn't married. But, Jesus says nothing about it. Why? You would think that He would want to tell the whole world that He has had His marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and made Eternal. Instead, we are not even told if He was married. Could it be that God the Father didn't want Jesus Christ talking about these sacred experiences in a public setting?
During Christ's ministry, whenever someone found Christ, what did Christ immediately do? Jesus Christ pointed them to His Apostles, to His Saving Ordinances, and to His Church. All throughout the LDS Scriptures, Jesus Christ tells us that He sees Himself and His Church as being one and the same thing. All throughout the LDS Scriptures, Jesus Christ also tells us that He sees Himself and His Apostles as being One. Jesus is always commanding His Apostles to be One in Him. Therefore, whenever someone found Jesus Christ, He always sent them to His Apostles or the Seventy for instruction, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. This pattern continued to hold true even after Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Jesus Christ NEVER performed these ordinances Himself. He always delegated the performance of the Saving Ordinances to His Duly Authorized Servants, the Apostles, the Seventy, and the Elders.
Now, let's look at the contrast. I love the contrast! There have been questions repeatedly asked on this forum, and they can be answered by examining and following the example of our Master Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ and His Apostles have warned us repeatedly that in the last days there will be false prophets and false messiahs among us. This should be no surprise to us, because there have been false prophets and false messiahs in every Gospel Dispensation. If there are false prophets, then that also means that there are True Prophets. The false prophets will be preaching Christ and pointing us to Christ as will the True Prophets; so, how do we go about distinguishing the false prophets from the real deal, if the false prophets are also preaching Christ and pointing us to Christ?
One of the warning signals telling me that I might be dealing with a false prophet is the fact that the false prophet will come out in public and say, “I had my Calling and Election made Sure. I received the Second Comforter. I have received the ministration of Angels many times. I have seen Jesus Christ.” A false prophet is NOT going to come out and simply say, “I received a revelation today”, because that isn't dramatic enough to get anyone's attention or to lead anyone astray. A false prophet has to go to the end of the process and make his most sacred and secret experiences known in order to establish “street creds” among the Saints of God, so that he can slowly and effectively lead the Saints astray. The best way to destroy the Kingdom of God is from within.
In contrast, we are left to wonder if any of the True Prophets have seen Jesus Christ, have had their Celestial Marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, have had any of their Callings or Elections made Sure, have ever received the Second Comforter, or have ever seen an Angel. Just like with Christ their Master, we are left to wonder if the True Prophets of God have received any of these sacred experiences because they have apparently been commanded by their Father not to speak of them if they have.
A True Prophet of God will be restrained and reined in by God. A True Prophet of God will be handicapped by God and not allowed to tell us all that he has seen or knows. A True Prophet of God will refuse to speak publicly about his most sacred spiritual experiences. A True Prophet will hide his greatest knowledge in stories, metaphors, and parables rather than coming out and telling us plainly the Mysteries of God. A True Prophet of God will do as Jesus Christ did.
A false prophet will have left the LDS Church long ago in his heart if not in actual deed, or will have been excommunicated from the LDS Church. Furthermore, some of the followers of the false prophet will also follow his example and leave the LDS Church or be excommunicated from the LDS Church. A false prophet will always find some way to get himself or his followers separated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
In contrast, have you ever heard of anyone following Thomas S. Monson into apostasy and excommunication from the LDS Church? Have you ever heard of anyone following the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints into apostasy and excommunication from the LDS Church?
Unlike our Master Jesus Christ, a false prophet will point us to ANYTHING, except the LDS Apostles, the Saving Ordinances, and the Church of Jesus Christ. A false prophet will point us to Jesus Christ, will point us to the Second Comforter, will point us to Callings and Elections made Sure, but will NEVER point us to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the LDS Apostles. A false prophet will NEVER point us to baptism into the LDS Church or confirmation in the LDS Church. Instead, a false prophet will toy with the idea of leaving the LDS Church, and might even do so before he is excommunicated from the LDS Church.
A false prophet will point us to his book, his seminars, his blog pages, or even parts of the LDS Scriptures, but never to the LDS Apostles or the LDS Church. Instead, a false prophet will convincingly tell us why we (and he) don't need the Saving Ordinances and the LDS Church in order to be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. A false prophet will claim some kind of special dispensation. A false prophet will tell us that he trusts Jesus Christ to save him, while at the same time leading us away from the Church of Jesus Christ. A false prophet will make no effort to convert us to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In contrast, the first thing Jesus Christ did was to point His new-found followers to His Apostles and His Church. Jesus Christ knew that His Apostles and His Church would still be around after He was gone. Jesus Christ might not be present among us, but His Church is.
A false prophet will preach Christ and even quote the LDS Scriptures; but then, he will distort the doctrines and change the original interpretation of the LDS Scriptures so severely that the Holy Ghost will actually stop testifying to the truthfulness of the man's interpretations of Scripture. While reading the writings of a false prophet, I find my heart filling with disappointment and disgust. When the false prophet interprets LDS Scriptures, the result is disheartening; and, I often find myself thinking over and over again, “That is false. That is the wrong interpretation of the Scripture. That interpretation of the LDS Scriptures is trying to get me to abandon the LDS Church and the LDS Apostles. That interpretation of the Scripture or LDS History is dark and ugly. And so forth.”
In contrast, whenever the True Prophets of God interpret the LDS Scriptures, the Holy Ghost is often there testifying to the truthfulness of what they just said. It's a joyful and beautiful experience that leads us to want to hear more from the LDS Apostles, leads us to want to be baptized into the LDS Church, and leads us to want to remain true and faithful to Jesus Christ and His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
A True Prophet of God will not only point us to Jesus Christ, but he will also point us to the Saving Ordinances, to the LDS Temple Endowment, and to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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Regarding the Second Comforter:
NJB wrote: No, this is a one on one meeting as one man speaks with another, not carried away in the Spirit.
This part is and parcel of receiving The Second Comforter.
He descends to see you, you are transfigured before Him, here on earth.
No dreamy fairy dust stuff.
Wish these Dusterites knew their material.
njb
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My Response:
Yes, the fulness of the Second Comforter experience is a face to face encounter in the flesh here on this earth. There are indeed types and shadows of the Second Comforter experience that takes place in dreams. But, the full deal or the real deal takes place in person in the flesh as the initiate sups with the Lord, as if the initiate were an actual member of the Lord's family. The initiate will actually get to see the Lord eat real food thus providing proof that the Lord has a resurrected physical body. What's comforting about that? If the Lord can rise from the dead to one day again eat real food, then we can too.
As mentioned in D&C 27, a full and complete Second Comforter experience will take place at Adam-ondi-Ahman. Christ will be there in the flesh, and the participants will Sup with the Lord.
Study the New Testament on the road to Emmaus. What happened at the end of the journey? They sat down and supped with the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Then He disappeared from before their face, but not until after they had seen Him eat food as if they were part of His family.
What happened every time that the Lord appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection? Jesus ate with them. He showed them that He could eat real physical food. Often, Jesus would prepare them dinner and then call them over to eat with Him. Or, Jesus would tell them where to cast their nets, and then the Apostles would bring in fish and together Jesus and His Apostles would eat the fish. Those are real Second Comforter experiences.
The initiate in a full or complete or real Second Comforter experience actually sups with the Lord in the flesh here on earth. Again, what's comforting about this? First of all, it lets us know that Jesus Christ considers the initiate to be part of His family, because families sup together. Furthermore, Satan cannot sit down with us and sup with us and eat real physical food in our presence. Therefore, we know it isn't Satan appearing as an Angel of Light, whenever the Lord appears to us and eats real physical food in our presence. Very comforting indeed!
Mark My Words
Some of the Snufferites have demanded once again that I provide them with an explanation of my beliefs and my writings. BrianM even asked me to supply some of this. So here goes, once again.
Before I start, I must say that all of this is my OWN personal opinion. It is not libel, and I am NOT lying. I am going to tell you now how I (and some of my friends) personally interpret the writings and actions of Denver Snuffer and his followers. I am going to paraphrase a lot of this because it was given to me in private, so don't expect me to provide any sources or direct quotes from my friends and their private messages to me. Remember, it is all opinion, so lay off already!
I have had a couple of interesting conversations with different Snufferites in private messaging. They're not all bad people. In fact, I like some of them a lot and have had some interesting interaction with some of them. I wouldn't mind hanging out with some of them in person, if given the chance to do so.
One person wrote to me and said, “I hate the Snufferites”. I found the statement rather shocking at the time, because that's just not the way that I personally feel about the Snufferites. There are actually a couple of the Snufferites that I have learned to like, for one reason or another, mostly because they are good people I guess. For awhile, I was dissident, I was atheist, I was a Cultural Mormon, I was inactive, I was Jack Mormon, and I was an LDS Apostate who didn't believe in any of it any more. The Snufferites are my kind of people, and I relate to the dissident and the fringe more than anyone can possibly guess.
Some of us have taken to calling the public tactics of the Snufferites by the name of “Snufferisms”. Often, the Snufferites have become so converted to their master (contrary to Snuffer's own command) that they cannot see that they are committing these acts of Snufferism during their defense of the man.
Denver wrote: "In contrast, my view is that the leaders are unworthy to lead the Saints. The basic member is more virtuous, more worthy, and better than those who lead them. I’m skeptical of the top, not the bottom.”
This is a Snufferisim – it's mind-reading, it's assuming facts not in evidence, it's assuming the negative, it's jumping to conclusions, it's pronouncing final judgment, it's a way of saying that I and the Snufferites are better than you are. I have had Snufferites write to me and tell me that they agree with this statement. But, there's no way for a Snufferite to judge or know if one person is more virtuous, more worthy, or better than someone else. That's simple mind-reading, one of the worst of logic fallacies. To make such a claim, you have to assume facts that no mortal being can possibly know. Plus, it's really Christ's job to make this kind of judgment, not ours!
Many of the Snufferites that I personally have encountered engage in mind-reading, assuming of facts not in evidence, and assuming the negative. They sometimes judge and condemn a person, even though the person is actually investigating their cause and is open to joining their cause. But, through mind-reading and personally attacking their investigators, the Snufferites often turn their investigators against Denver Snuffer and his message. I have had a number of people tell me that this happened to them. They were simply looking for answers, when they were unexpectedly pounced on by a Snufferite and driven away from the man and his cause. This happened to me also, many different times.
The Snufferites as a group repeatedly libel and label their opponents as “liars” in public. This is also a form of mind-reading. There's no way they can know for sure if a person's publicly expressed opinion is in fact a deliberate lie. Even when some of their investigators are asking an honest question, the investigator is often labeled as a “liar” and encouraged to shut up or go away. Many of my friends have told me in private that this happened to them. It also has happened to me.
In private conversation with a Snufferite, I was asked to think about why I chose to abandon Denver Snuffer and his message. This person had derived so much good from Denver Snuffer that he just couldn't see my point of view. I got to wondering if I left because of the man or because of the actions of the Snufferites.
I must confess, I did indeed leave in no small part due to the fact that some of the Snufferites did in fact tell me to shut up and go away. In other words, there were indeed a few Snufferites who drove me away from his secret forum, drove me away from reading the man, and drove me away from their cause. The Snufferites did indeed develop within me a bias to only look for and search for what is wrong with the man and his followers, in large part because of the tactics and exclusionary practices that they used on me to defend the man. I must confess that this is true. One of the Snufferites told me that confession is good for the soul; so, I can now confess that some of the Snufferites did indeed drive me away from the man, his books, and his blog. The fruits of his labors, the Snufferites, did indeed have a role in driving me away from Denver Snuffer. There's no denying it. And, some of my friends have told me in private that the same thing happened to them.
But, I also must admit that the claims that Denver was making in his book, “Passing the Heavenly Gift”, that the Lord stopped backing the Saints and the LDS Church at Nauvoo when they failed to complete the LDS Temple, also had a great impact on me. I just don't buy it, because I have encountered dozens of active Latter-day Saints who clearly have NOT been abandoned by the Lord. It is also clear to me that some of the LDS General Authorities have NOT been abandoned by the Lord, because the Holy Ghost actually testifies to me that what they are saying to me is true. Furthermore, if the claims that Denver Snuffer makes in “Passing the Heavenly Gift” are really true, then there is no way possible for the things that he wrote in “The Second Comforter” to be true. So, the man's message did indeed have an impact on my decision to leave the man and his message behind. Dozens of people, both in public and in private, have told me that they have experienced the same thing. They simply do NOT see “Passing the Heavenly Gift” as a work from God.
I could also sense from my Snufferite friend that he did indeed believe and know that he had gotten a lot of good from Denver Snuffer. Of course, I and some of the others can also see some of the bad that he and other Snufferites like him have gotten from Denver Snuffer. They wear the mark of their master and exemplify their master. It's a part of them, a part that they are often blind to; but, the Snufferites follow and do what Denver writes in public.
I had one person write to me and say something to this effect, “Why can't the Snufferites see that they, themselves, turn us against Denver and his message by the very tactics that they use to defend him?” It's an interesting question, is it not?
Denver Snuffer wrote about some of the Latter-day Saints, “I envision them as little yellow chaps.” This is another type of Snufferism, what some of us entitle name-calling. The most commonly used Snufferism on LDS Freedom Forum takes place whenever the Snufferites start libeling and labeling their opponents as liars, simply because their opponents refuse to interpret Denver Snuffer's words the exact same way that the Snufferites do. Of course, the Snufferite is permitted to label and libel the opponent, because the Snufferite knows that the opponent is a liar. Some of the little yellow chaps out here in the world could see Denver's comment not only as name-calling but also as a racial slur.
Whenever a Snufferite is losing the argument, they then resort to calling their opponents liars. But NO, their opponents are not liars. Their opponents are simply fulfilling their request or their demand to know why we refuse to support and sustain them and Denver Snuffer. Yet, when we tell them why, then the Snufferite will libel us as a liar and try to get our posts deleted or try to get us banned from the forum. The Snufferites can indeed leave a bad taste in the mouth. They first demand an explanation, and then they libel and label when the explanation is given. It can get quite annoying at times.
One person told me to observe and see that when it comes to the Snufferites, there is no love or charity in them; they can't be from Christ, because they violate Christ's second great commandment. I can certainly say that I have seen evidence of that from most of the Snufferites, but not all of them. I can say with a surety that Denver Snuffer is often judged by the actions of his followers, the Snufferites. The Snufferites are often their own worst enemies, especially whenever they pounce on their unwary investigators and start chewing them out for questioning Denver Snuffer and his motives. It turns people off to Denver, his books, and his blog. I can't count the number of times that people have expressed to me this sentiment in private. They don't like the Snufferites because of the way that they have been treated by the Snufferites. Over time, they also learn not to like Denver Snuffer because of the way that his followers have treated them.
To Denver Snuffer: “In your effort to defend the restoration, you have mischaracterized doctrine, denigrated virtually every prophet since Joseph Smith, and placed the church in a negative light. The book (Passing the Heavenly Gift) is a misguided effort to attempt to bridge the gap between the church and its dissidents.”
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/08/dont-call-me-yes-that-means-you-too_23.html
This is not only an accusation, but it is also what a jury of twelve convicted Denver Snuffer of doing and excommunicated Denver Snuffer for doing. I must openly confess that Denver's excommunication did indeed have an an impact on my decision to stop supporting him and following him. Others have expressed to me similar sentiments. There's a reason why they excommunicated Denver, and some of those reasons are why some of us no longer trust Denver Snuffer. That's just the way it is.
This, too, is yet another Snufferism, or mode of operation for the Snufferite. The Snufferites often mischaracterize LDS Doctrine in order to suit their goals. They sometimes deliberately interpret the LDS Scriptures in a way that conflicts with Official LDS Church Doctrine. Their posts and public messages often denigrate or ridicule or dismiss the LDS General Authorities and the Brethrenites, their teachings, their revelations, and their words. Following their master, the Snufferites often cast the church in a negative light. Some people have suggested to me in private that if the Snufferites are what the LDS Church is like, then they don't want to have any part of it. I have to assure them that I have not seen any of this from the members of my own ward.
When the Snufferites start dissing the impersonal bureaucratic LDS Church of recent years, I know exactly where they are coming from. The institution is less than perfect as even some of the LDS General Authorities will admit. I have had and have encountered some serious disagreements with the LDS Church over my life. I'm in my fifties and have been a baptized member since I was 8; so, I have had some time to rack up some grievances. Those who have served an LDS mission know that you catch a lot of flack there as well. The only question I have is, “What good does it do you to discuss my grievances in public?”
As I see it, if I don't like my ward, then it is my responsibility to go out and try to make my ward the kind of place and the kind of people that I do like to be around. Airing my grievances against the LDS Church won't accomplish that, because my grievances against the LDS Church are also grievances against me as a member of the LDS Church. If I don't like something, then I should go out and change it, rather than complaining about it.
I have had half a dozen LDS friends who have been employees of the LDS Church. It ended badly or didn't turn out well for most of them. Only one of them likes it, and continues to like it over a decade later. The man fascinates me because he honestly and truly loves working for the LDS Church; but, he is the exception rather than the rule. For many, being an employee of the LDS Church becomes the source of their desire to leave the LDS Church. It's the fact that they run the Church like a corporation that tends to annoy people the most. One person told me that when she became an employee for the LDS Church, one of her friends or leaders told her not to let it drive her out of the Church. She didn't know what the person was talking about at first, but she came to know.
Yes, this kind of stuff exists, but what good did I just do you by telling you this in public? Were you enlightened and edified? Was your testimony strengthened? Do you now feel closer to Jesus Christ than you did before? Did what I just say make you feel happy to be a Latter-day Saint?
Joseph Smith wrote: “If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”
This rule applies equally as much to the Snufferites as it does to any other Latter-day Saint; yet, the book “Passing the Heavenly Gift” is in blatant violation of this rule. Dozens of people have pointed this out to me in one way or another. It's not just something that I made up on my own.
I always end up agreeing with the Snufferites whenever they bring up the issue of poverty in the LDS Church. I can also say in all honesty that we ALL should do better helping the poor and serving the poor, not just the LDS Church and not just the LDS General Authorities. LDS Bishops should and must find ways to get Fast Offering funds and humanitarian relief directed their way, especially if they have people in their ward who are dying from starvation or exposure. The boots on the ground, the LDS Bishops and LDS Stake Presidents have to take responsibility for this; and, they are in a direct position to do so. They have every right to get on the horn and let Salt Lake City know that they and their wards are in desperate need of some assistance.
The Snufferites that I have encountered almost unanimously 'cast the church in a negative light' when it comes to the poor Latter-day Saints who live among them. The only problem I have with this is that so far NONE of them have told me what they personally are doing to solve the problem. The Snufferites I have conversed with seem to only be complaining about the problem rather than actually trying to find ways to solve the problem. If they know how to solve he problem, then please, go out and do it!
And, that's the way I currently see it. Tomorrow, I will probably see it differently.
I wrote a piece for a Snufferite who repeatedly keeps asking, “Why don't you trust us? Why don't you trust Denver Snuffer?” I'll include that next if I am permitted to do so, because it answers the person's question.
Mark My Words
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Jesus Christ our Exemplar:
Can we all agree that Jesus Christ is our Master and our Exemplar? Can we all agree that Jesus Christ is the perfect example of a saved and exalted being? Can we all agree that we should follow Jesus Christ and do as He did? If we can come to this agreement, then maybe we can make some real progress, by examining what Christ did and how He acted while here on this earth.
Let me ask some questions.
At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, did Jesus Christ stand up and say to the 5,000 plus assembled at His feet: “I rock! I just received the Third Comforter. You guys haven't even yet received the First Comforter, and I have already received the Third Comforter. How cool is that?”
Nope!
Instead, we are all left to wonder if Jesus Christ ever received the Third Comforter. We are also left to wonder if Jesus Christ received the Second Comforter; and if He did, who was the being who appeared to Jesus when Jesus Christ received the Second Comforter? Jesus Christ simply leaves us hanging with the words and the evidence unsaid. Why? I'll let you figure out for yourself why; but let me say that Jesus repeatedly tells us that He only does what His Father commands Him to do.
During the triumphal entry into Jerusalem when the people were worshiping before Him, did Jesus stand up on the back of the donkey and shout out to the whole city of Jerusalem, “I had my Calling and Election made Sure!”
No!
Instead, we are left to wonder if Jesus Christ ever had any of His callings and elections made sure. In fact, most of Christendom haven't even heard of callings and elections, let alone trying to figure out how to make any of them sure.
At the Last Supper, did Jesus Christ stand up before His buddies and tell them, “I'm THE MAN! I have had my Celestial Marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise!”
Nope!
Instead, we are left to wonder if Jesus Christ ever received a Celestial Marriage. We assume that Jesus did, because in Jewish culture a man could not become a Rabbi or Teacher if he wasn't married. But, Jesus says nothing about it. Why? You would think that He would want to tell the whole world that He has had His marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and made Eternal. Instead, we are not even told if He was married. Could it be that God the Father didn't want Jesus Christ talking about these sacred experiences in a public setting?
During Christ's ministry, whenever someone found Christ, what did Christ immediately do? Jesus Christ pointed them to His Apostles, to His Saving Ordinances, and to His Church. All throughout the LDS Scriptures, Jesus Christ tells us that He sees Himself and His Church as being one and the same thing. All throughout the LDS Scriptures, Jesus Christ also tells us that He sees Himself and His Apostles as being One. Jesus is always commanding His Apostles to be One in Him. Therefore, whenever someone found Jesus Christ, He always sent them to His Apostles or the Seventy for instruction, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost. This pattern continued to hold true even after Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Jesus Christ NEVER performed these ordinances Himself. He always delegated the performance of the Saving Ordinances to His Duly Authorized Servants, the Apostles, the Seventy, and the Elders.
Now, let's look at the contrast. I love the contrast! There have been questions repeatedly asked on this forum, and they can be answered by examining and following the example of our Master Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ and His Apostles have warned us repeatedly that in the last days there will be false prophets and false messiahs among us. This should be no surprise to us, because there have been false prophets and false messiahs in every Gospel Dispensation. If there are false prophets, then that also means that there are True Prophets. The false prophets will be preaching Christ and pointing us to Christ as will the True Prophets; so, how do we go about distinguishing the false prophets from the real deal, if the false prophets are also preaching Christ and pointing us to Christ?
One of the warning signals telling me that I might be dealing with a false prophet is the fact that the false prophet will come out in public and say, “I had my Calling and Election made Sure. I received the Second Comforter. I have received the ministration of Angels many times. I have seen Jesus Christ.” A false prophet is NOT going to come out and simply say, “I received a revelation today”, because that isn't dramatic enough to get anyone's attention or to lead anyone astray. A false prophet has to go to the end of the process and make his most sacred and secret experiences known in order to establish “street creds” among the Saints of God, so that he can slowly and effectively lead the Saints astray. The best way to destroy the Kingdom of God is from within.
In contrast, we are left to wonder if any of the True Prophets have seen Jesus Christ, have had their Celestial Marriage sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, have had any of their Callings or Elections made Sure, have ever received the Second Comforter, or have ever seen an Angel. Just like with Christ their Master, we are left to wonder if the True Prophets of God have received any of these sacred experiences because they have apparently been commanded by their Father not to speak of them if they have.
A True Prophet of God will be restrained and reined in by God. A True Prophet of God will be handicapped by God and not allowed to tell us all that he has seen or knows. A True Prophet of God will refuse to speak publicly about his most sacred spiritual experiences. A True Prophet will hide his greatest knowledge in stories, metaphors, and parables rather than coming out and telling us plainly the Mysteries of God. A True Prophet of God will do as Jesus Christ did.
A false prophet will have left the LDS Church long ago in his heart if not in actual deed, or will have been excommunicated from the LDS Church. Furthermore, some of the followers of the false prophet will also follow his example and leave the LDS Church or be excommunicated from the LDS Church. A false prophet will always find some way to get himself or his followers separated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
In contrast, have you ever heard of anyone following Thomas S. Monson into apostasy and excommunication from the LDS Church? Have you ever heard of anyone following the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints into apostasy and excommunication from the LDS Church?
Unlike our Master Jesus Christ, a false prophet will point us to ANYTHING, except the LDS Apostles, the Saving Ordinances, and the Church of Jesus Christ. A false prophet will point us to Jesus Christ, will point us to the Second Comforter, will point us to Callings and Elections made Sure, but will NEVER point us to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the LDS Apostles. A false prophet will NEVER point us to baptism into the LDS Church or confirmation in the LDS Church. Instead, a false prophet will toy with the idea of leaving the LDS Church, and might even do so before he is excommunicated from the LDS Church.
A false prophet will point us to his book, his seminars, his blog pages, or even parts of the LDS Scriptures, but never to the LDS Apostles or the LDS Church. Instead, a false prophet will convincingly tell us why we (and he) don't need the Saving Ordinances and the LDS Church in order to be saved and exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. A false prophet will claim some kind of special dispensation. A false prophet will tell us that he trusts Jesus Christ to save him, while at the same time leading us away from the Church of Jesus Christ. A false prophet will make no effort to convert us to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In contrast, the first thing Jesus Christ did was to point His new-found followers to His Apostles and His Church. Jesus Christ knew that His Apostles and His Church would still be around after He was gone. Jesus Christ might not be present among us, but His Church is.
A false prophet will preach Christ and even quote the LDS Scriptures; but then, he will distort the doctrines and change the original interpretation of the LDS Scriptures so severely that the Holy Ghost will actually stop testifying to the truthfulness of the man's interpretations of Scripture. While reading the writings of a false prophet, I find my heart filling with disappointment and disgust. When the false prophet interprets LDS Scriptures, the result is disheartening; and, I often find myself thinking over and over again, “That is false. That is the wrong interpretation of the Scripture. That interpretation of the LDS Scriptures is trying to get me to abandon the LDS Church and the LDS Apostles. That interpretation of the Scripture or LDS History is dark and ugly. And so forth.”
In contrast, whenever the True Prophets of God interpret the LDS Scriptures, the Holy Ghost is often there testifying to the truthfulness of what they just said. It's a joyful and beautiful experience that leads us to want to hear more from the LDS Apostles, leads us to want to be baptized into the LDS Church, and leads us to want to remain true and faithful to Jesus Christ and His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
A True Prophet of God will not only point us to Jesus Christ, but he will also point us to the Saving Ordinances, to the LDS Temple Endowment, and to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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Regarding the Second Comforter:
NJB wrote: No, this is a one on one meeting as one man speaks with another, not carried away in the Spirit.
This part is and parcel of receiving The Second Comforter.
He descends to see you, you are transfigured before Him, here on earth.
No dreamy fairy dust stuff.
Wish these Dusterites knew their material.
njb
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My Response:
Yes, the fulness of the Second Comforter experience is a face to face encounter in the flesh here on this earth. There are indeed types and shadows of the Second Comforter experience that takes place in dreams. But, the full deal or the real deal takes place in person in the flesh as the initiate sups with the Lord, as if the initiate were an actual member of the Lord's family. The initiate will actually get to see the Lord eat real food thus providing proof that the Lord has a resurrected physical body. What's comforting about that? If the Lord can rise from the dead to one day again eat real food, then we can too.
As mentioned in D&C 27, a full and complete Second Comforter experience will take place at Adam-ondi-Ahman. Christ will be there in the flesh, and the participants will Sup with the Lord.
Study the New Testament on the road to Emmaus. What happened at the end of the journey? They sat down and supped with the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. Then He disappeared from before their face, but not until after they had seen Him eat food as if they were part of His family.
What happened every time that the Lord appeared to His Apostles after His resurrection? Jesus ate with them. He showed them that He could eat real physical food. Often, Jesus would prepare them dinner and then call them over to eat with Him. Or, Jesus would tell them where to cast their nets, and then the Apostles would bring in fish and together Jesus and His Apostles would eat the fish. Those are real Second Comforter experiences.
The initiate in a full or complete or real Second Comforter experience actually sups with the Lord in the flesh here on earth. Again, what's comforting about this? First of all, it lets us know that Jesus Christ considers the initiate to be part of His family, because families sup together. Furthermore, Satan cannot sit down with us and sup with us and eat real physical food in our presence. Therefore, we know it isn't Satan appearing as an Angel of Light, whenever the Lord appears to us and eats real physical food in our presence. Very comforting indeed!
Mark My Words
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